Is it a Proxy?

I've been thinking about the subject of Proxy vs 'Counts As' quite a bit recently, what with some of the discussion about Adepticon, the upcoming BoLSCon, and a series of posts over on YTTH.  What's appropriate?  What's not?  I won't go into the posts and comments made on any of the above sites, because this isn't some sort of refutation but rather how the topic affects me.  To that end, I E-mailed the Master Manipulator (every store needs one) and asked his opinion on the topic.  How is that relevant?  It may not be to you, but given he's the judge of our local events, it gives you a perspective on how it might be viewed at tournaments.  Without further ado...

Is it live or is it Memorex?

I received a request from Brent asking it I could do a write up on how I determine between a proxy and a “counts as”. I have been through this conversation with Evil Homer on several occasions and it came up recently with one of our local gamers.

Let me start off by saying in friendly games, I could care less what everyone does. This is purely my opinion on how I adjudicate in our tournaments. I am all for a well made back story to explain why you are using Sisters of Battle to rep your Dark Angels or something silly like that. That is the great stuff fun that people love doing with this game. Just don’t bring it to my tourneys.

The basis of this conversation really boils down to one question. “Why does it matter?”

I should be able to set down with anyone at any time and look across the table and have a fairly good idea of what is going on. I should not have to question what my opponent is using for what, or whether or not they may have misunderstood some allies rule or something. There should be a confidence in what I would expect to see when my opponent places models on the table.

With that out of the way, there is the meat and potatoes of it. When someone asks me if a model is a proxy or “counts as”, I typically respond with the following:

Does that model have a profile or set of rules that is legal in the current game, and those rules are different from what you plan on using? For the most part if the answer to that question is yes, than it’s a proxy. Why for the most part? Well basic Space Marine models are used for various stat lines across a large number of Codexes. So you may ask: what are some examples of a proxy? As stated earlier using Sisters of Battle as Space Marines, or using Chaos Marines as loyal Space Marines. Keep in mind as I stated earlier, this is fine for friendly games it just really has not place in a tournament.

Well than, what is a counts as? To me in plain and simple terms, a “counts as” is simply a model that DOES NOT have a current legal profile in the game system you are playing. This could be because the model is no longer supported or it is for a different game system. Here are some of the local examples of what I consider a “counts as”. One local gamer does not like or want to buy the current Chaos Fiend models for his 40k army. He has substituted some older Dark Elf Cold Ones as fiends. To me this is a “counts as”. Those models do not have a current profile in 40K. Another player wanted to differentiate between his basic IG models and Vets. So he is using Kasrkin models in place of his IG vets. To me those models could represent either Vets or Stormtrooper models.

Finally many people question the area of conversions. That is where you start to get into grey areas that really just require interpretation from the judge. For most of the examples I have seen, I typically ask if there is any possible way the model could be confused for something else (or more directly the original model?) A good example would be a local Chaos player who took some Chaos Terminator models and added extra arms and weapons to represent Obliterators. His models were substantially converted and really showed little resemblance to the original model. They also were fairly close to the size of the original model so I had not problem with them. I did instruct him to be open and clear with his opponent at the beginning of the game as well as when he deployed them as to what they are. If you are really unsure, get some pictures and solicit input from others. Others may have input that will help you in your decision.

So there is it. I would like to finish this with a few small points. First off, this is simply my opinion and it is how I look at it. Others ideas may vary and that is fine and dandy. Second, I have stated several times that for friendly games go with what you want. It is a game after all and you are supposed to have fun. I just try to encourage everyone to keep these things in mind when they attend the tournament I run. Last, what the hell do I know…have fun for Christ’s sake!


The_King_Elessar said...

Consistency, for me, is the single most important thing.

If a Bolter is being used as a Flamer, then all your Bolters better legally be Flamers, and you'd better have paid the points.

That said, how do you feel about the idea of, say, using a Raven Guard army as the BA Codex? RG are clearly defined as a Codex Chapter in the SM Dex.

Evil Homer said...

I think that's a fluff issue, not a rules issue. You really are just playing black and white BA, kind of like playing green, robed codex marines because the DA book is rather dated.

Gauthic said...

Yep... the colors might not be there, but the equipment is... Power Armor, Purity Seals, Bolters, etc they're marines... as long as you tell me what codex you're using I don't care how they're painted as long as they're repped as above :)

Master Manipulator (every store needs one) said...

I would have not problem with that. That falls into the same area of normal Space Marines. They can be used for pretty much anything.

I would simply advise the player to be sure and inform his opponent that he is using the BA codex for his army.

Big Jim said...

While I totally agree with you on the Sisters issue, I don't see anything wrong with Chaos Marines using a Loyalist dex as long as they are modeled appropriately.

Hell I freely mix Chaos parts into my Space Wolves as the extra trim looks great on space Vikings.


The_King_Elessar said...

Big Jim basically asked my next question...so, thanks Jim! :)

A friend of mine, for instance, just bought £80 or so's worth of Night Lords bling to build a BA army. For me, that's golden. What if I had an army of IG that all had Gretchin heads? [I've actually seen this, it looks awesome, btw.]

evil homer said...

Gretchin heads do not a guardsman make, but putting an ork on the table and calling it a guardsman would be verboten

The_King_Elessar said...

Okay, what if it's a RT Ork, that has Eavy Armour and a Bolter. Is that verboten if I call it a Space Marine? Assuming my entire army is Counts As Space Marines, consistent, and I'm using Looted Rhinos?

sonsoftaurus said...

I agree that consistency and clarity are the big things for "counts-as". So, Sesame Street Ork army? Elmos are grots, misc. monsters are boyz with relevant weapons, Oscars are Killa Kans, Big Bird is Zagstrukk? Gotcha, let's roll.

Anonymous said...

What about using non-special models to represent special charatcers. There are a bunch of nice SM Captain models, but a captain generally sucks rules-wise. It would be nice to use them as Vulkan or Pedro.

The_King_Elessar said...

I converted a Plastic Yriel from DA bits, and gave him a GS eye. Twas fun. :)

I should point out, I'm not asking to be a jerk, but I think it's important to think about where you put the line on this issue. Obviously, using a Gretchin as a Wraithlord is unacceptable, even if you are consistent, and blutack the appropriate weapons on.

Brent said...

Nobody thinks you're being a jerk TKE... not here, anyway!

I love this type of conversation. I'm putting together a visual guide to highlight a few of these arguments - just for fun, of course.


The_King_Elessar said...

Oh, oh! Do it like Dethtron!

Or not. :)

(A new favorite!) Anon: I haven’t even bothered playing a game of 6th yet, cause I have read the rules, and actually understand how they interact with units. I know my armies no longer function how they should, and so I need to change them.

Strictly Average: 'cause 6-inches is all you get.

Stalking Jawaballs since 2009.

Jawaballs: "My butt just tightened up."

Brent, preferred 2-to-1 over Not Brent in a recent, scientific poll.

Brent: emptied the Kool Aid and DRINKING YOUR MILKSHAKE with an extra-long straw.

Unicorns don't exist.

Home of the Stormbuster, the Dyson Pattern Storm Raven.

I'm a comment whore and this whore is getting no play.

Not Brent hurts Brent's feelings.

I think, therefore I blog.

"You should stop writing for everyone else and worry about your crappy blog." - Anon.

Not Brent has been spotted lurking around with a green marker.

He's not like a bad guy from a cartoon, all devious but never quite evil, Not Brent is bad beans, man, bad beans.

Dethtron: "Again I feel obliged to remind you that trying to sound smart only works if you are."

MVB: "I am not one to join the unwashed masses of self-titled 40k experts out there distributing advice from their blogs about exactly how your list should be built..."

Shiner Bock on tap: that's how I choose hotels.

Strictly Average: The Home of Hugs and Gropings.

Don't feed the trolls!

MoD: "Welcome to Brent's head."

Competitive is Consistent.

Dethtron: "...you could use that extra time to figure out a way to get your panties unbunched and perform a sandectomy on your vagina."

Dethtron: “When calling someone an idiot, it's generally best to avoid making grammatical mistakes.”

Warboss Stalin: "You know, if it actually WAS funny, maybe I wouldn't mind."

Mike Brandt: "It's not a successful bachelor party if you don't misplace someone".

"The Master Manipulator (every store needs one): "...now, enough stroking."

Kirby: "I don't know about gropings. Seriously, Brent, keep it in the pants, please."

Loquacious: "No matter how hard I tried, I couldn't get Hugs & Gropings or Stalks Jawaballs into Brent's little tribute."

Captain Kellen: "I rate this article a Brent on the Faith Hill to Nancy Pelosi scale!"

Drathmere: "Come for the balls, stay for the Brent? Kind of disturbing, man."

Go no further, lest thee see something thine eyes would fain look past!

Isabelle: "So, thank you for supporting your local and not so local unicorns. A noble gesture like that can show some scared kids out there that they don't have to hide from everyone and it's ok to be who they really are."

There is nothing more interesting than We The People... in all our beautiful, ugly glory!

On Internet Advice: You see, I have an almost religious belief that's it's a huge, colossal waste of time.

...I think I'll call it the Gun Shy Pattern Stormbuster, because after the Internet destroyed my first humble effort, I find I'm a bit worried about the reaction to this one.

Lauby: "Is it left over from that time you thought that you could just complete step one 12 times to meet the mandates of that court order?"

Not Brent: "I guess we'll have to read on and find out. Signed, Not Brent. Especially today."

Cynthia Davis: "I think the scrolling text is from Glen Beck's new book."

Grimaldi: "Spamming certain units creates interesting possibilities but also fatal weaknesses."

Purgatus: "Math can inform decisions. It cannot make decisions."

Thoughts? Comments? Hugs and gropings?

You'd be that much quicker to figure out what I mean when I refer to a Unicorn if I covered it in a rainbow flag.

SinSynn: (To Brent) "Curse you and your insidious influence on the internets..."

Dave G (N++): "You know you're an internet celebrity when your following is more akin to tabloids."

I prefer the term Internet Personality (or IP) myself, seeing as how I coined it.

Lauby: "Your attempt to humanize him as failed. I feel nothing but scorn for his beard - it's like a warcrime or something."

BBF: "I've always thought you are a good player but I finally figured out that you are a great player. It's hard to see sometimes because your personality is engaging, sincere and quite charming - to me that is kind of a rare combination."

'Clearly cheating?' I didn't misspeak: you jumped to conclusions. If you'd like to apologize I'll be happy to send you an autographed picture of my ass.


I thought I was doing alright before I realized I was losing.

Age and treachery beats youth and vigor every time.

Popular Posts