2.04.2010

So....What's Up Next

As my IG near the 2k mark, I am beginning to contemplate what I will start on next. I want to paint the IG army over spring break so hopefully I can knock it out in that week. After that it will be time to start to build something new. I won't stop playing the IG until this fall but this gives me time to work on the next project.

So what to consider...I have a Thousand Son army have assembled. I need some Rhino chasis and have to convert some oblits and then it will be finished to the 2k mark as well. I played it early last year with a little bit of success but I just can't see it being that competitive. It will however look fabulous. There is something to be said for style points. The only that looks better than a whole Thousand Sons army is an SoB army.

Then again, there is also a chance that 8th ed. fantasy comes out at around the time we are completing our monthly build up project. I have Demons based for 40k, but I could see myself turning into my fantasy army instead. When I put them together I intended to use them for both systems so there's that. Problem is it doesn't scratch the 'new toys' itch. Figmentia, we all have it.

That brings me back to a new 40k army. We don't really have SoB player right now, though the Master Manipulator has them as an army, and we don't a DE player either. I have this notion in my head to do something with Lizardmen models and the DE list but don't have a solid idea for Raiders, and can't really decide how to do ranged weapons for those models (style, not posing, I can do the modeling its just converting the weapons themselves that is the issue).

I also wonder if Immo spam sisters will actually work in the new era of IG, Razorback spam marines, and ugly nasty Nids. The list lacks the long range punch to deal with the first 2 I think the Nids would be manageable though.

Thoughts and more thoughts...

Any how feel free to comment. This message brought to you by idle hands, the devil's plaything. (I really should be doing homework right now..)

-EH

18 comments:

Brent said...

I'm hoping with 8th Ed we'll do an army build project for Fantasy. I don't think we have to roll randomly, given we don't have too many players so things are wide open. Your Daemons would be competitive.

For 40K... man, that's a tough one. I'm leaning toward a mixed arms force with SoB and allies, but I'm not sure.

I understand why Jeff gave up on Dark Eldar temporarily, but I'd like to see if someone could use them competitively. I've been eyeballing the Skaven and wondering if they'd make a good 'Counts-As'.

What about something out of the box, like Heresy Era list?

Big Whit said...

I'm also looking forward to playing some fantasy myself. It seems like we had just got started playing and then the rug got pulled out from under us.

Got a question for JWolf or anyone else who can answer this for us. We have a player that who has attached a war boss on a bike to kommando squad that has Snikrot. He is using Snikrot's ability to give the unit ambush along with the Warboss. The question is can an independent character who is attached to the unit use the ambush rule?

Mercer said...

Perhaps Daemonhunters for something different?

Evil Homer said...

Pre-heresy modeling is definitely a possbility. I've been saving MK1V torsos for a while. But the list is the issue.

Skaven counts-as Dark Eldar could definitely work. If you don't mind I may yank that idea if I decide to do the DE.

The fact we don't have a DE player really makes that appealing.

Nightrunners as wyches. Good character sculpts. The MM and I talked about it a little this morning. His thought was rats riding Doomwheels for raiders. I was thinking Doomwheels pulling wagons (based on the screaming bell). Either would work. I really like the Doomwheel model. Especially after seeing it used in a thunderwolf conversion.

Thoughts, thoughts. If I did sisters it would have to be pure. I have a guard army so no allies for me.

DH is also possible, I mapped out a conversion for plastic GK last year, and there is a good guide for converting DH termies from the plastic floating around. Vague rumors of a new =I= book make both options intriguing. Of course there are also rumors for plastic GK and those would be FANTASTIC!

Anyhow...skaven as DE...hmmm...

Jwolf said...

If an IC joins a unit, and the unit has a special rule that is not a USR or specified to be lost when he joins, the unit still has the special rule and the IC is part of the unit. Depending on the wording, the unit may or may not be able to use the ability.

The INAT says no, and I'm inclined to go with no, if for no other reason than 2 Warbosses appearing anywhere on the board seems like BS to me.

Big Whit said...

Thanks, I think the confusion came when the reserve rule was read. It makes it seem like an independent unit and the unit it's attached to are one unit. Ambush states that Snikrot's unit gets ambush, but an independent character that is attached is still a separate unit. Based off of that I would assume that no, a war boss would not be able to ambush with the kommandos.

Brent said...

Mmm... Whit, I'm not sure that's the portion of the argument that has weight. An IC that's attached is not a separate unit, it's a unit that can separate.

(adj --> verb)

It's treated as a different unit for purposes of targeting in close combat.

JWolf's first argument makes more sense; his second is interpretation.

But frankly I haven't done my homework, so feel free to ignore my kibitzing.

Master Manipulator (every store needs one) said...

My ruling at the last local was based on several things.

One, I hesitate to rule against something just because its powerful.

Two, when presented to me for question the person kept referencing infiltrators, but this is not the same. It is not a USR, and is not an outflank. It has it's own clearly defined rules presented in the ork book. Since it does not state that characters attached do not benefit I said it was good.

Three, an attached character is part of any unit he is with. He is affected by affects that target the unit, if they fall back he falls back. The only mention of him being different is in the close combat section, and this is not close combat.

Now, anyone attending a tournament using the INAT would have to play using their interpretations. I tend to avoid that FAQ as a base and make my own rulings. I just have a problem with an FAQ that goes beyond answering questions and starts changing rules.

Big Whit said...

The only problem I want to avoid is him going out of town and having his list kicked back. If he gets use to playing with that squad like this and can't use it out of town it could really hurt him especially since he is a new player.
Mike and I pulled the rule book out and looked at some different rules and although I'm to lazy to get up and get my book out to type it out exactly the way it was written, but we did come up with reasons for it not to work. I also wanted an outside opinion because if Simon does goes out of town to try and win a spot at Vegas, it will come down to their ruling and not ours. Not trying to be a dick about this, at the time it was a good ruling and there needed to be a ruling, but I think it's worth a second look now that there is more time.

Brent said...

Don't worry about Simon, Whit. He's a thinker; if his list is kicked back, he'll come up with another idea.

I'm thinking he should consider filling out some FA Rocket-tracks... note sure what they're called offhand, but they're a fast, cheap TL Str 8 hit.

Master Manipulator (every store needs one) said...

Okay I went back and looked at this again I was amazed at how clear the rule was right in front of my face. As I said, when the question was presented to me, the person questioning it made several references to Infiltrate and outflank. At the time he was referring to the Special Rules section in the Independent Characters section, pg 48 for those playing along at home. The problem being that he kept pointing out the last sentence that states "For example, if an independent character without the "infiltrate" special rule joins a unit of infiltrators during deployment, the unit can not infiltrate."

See that is where I screwed up. This person is normally quite fair, and has a pretty good grasp of the rules. I figured he simply had not read the Ambush rule in the ork dex and did not realize it did not confer infiltrate to the unit. From there I assumed (yeah I know what that means), that members of the unit share special rules. If I had simply read the entire paragraph I would have know right away.

Here is the one sentence that would have solved it. Either he failed to show it to me, or I simply was not getting the point at the time. "Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the 'stubborn special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred to upon the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit."

That covers this one fairly cut and dry. He would not be able to use the ambush special rule when the character is attached. It does not really matter if he becomes part of the unit or not, because he does not gain the rule unless it says he gains the rule. In this case unfortunately it does not.

SAJ said...

Thinker...I've never been accused of that before =)
I'll throw in my two cents to show why I thought it was legal. However, I'm happy to play according to what's decided here and will discontinue using the tactic. Legal or not, Bruce brings up a good point about having to continually defend the idea if I were to use it out of town, and there are other ways to skin the soft, pink 'oomans. But here's the why:

1. Ambush: ...If the owning player chooses, Snikrot and his unit may be held in Reserve. When Snikrot and his unit become available from Reserve, they may move on from any table edge.

2. As an IC can start the game already with a unit, I thought the IC was part of "his [Snikrot's] unit"

3. Ambush is a Codex rule and independent of any Universal Special Rules

4. I gave consideration to the rules mentioned on p.48, but Ambush is not a Special Rule conferred by the unit, but a rule that is bought by taking the Upgrade Character Snikrot


That was pretty much my thinking. Ambush is really the only reason to take Snikrot, so I figured that's what I was paying 85 pts for. (without it I think taking a Nob+PK & Bosspole is a better bet, and much cheaper)

This does bring up another question though, for when I play SM in the future:
A chaplain joins a unit and they benefit from his Honour of the Chapter (fearless) and Liturgies of Battle (re-rolls to hit on the charge). A captain now joins the same unit. According to p.48, the unit would no longer be fearless, and the captain does not get to re-roll for hits. Is that right?
(Or put more simply: what the Chaplain brings is not conferred to the IC, since the IC is not specifically addressed in the wording of the chaplain's rules)

SAJ said...

Oh, and Brent, I think you're talking about the warbuggies, and I think you're right. This month I'm doing a head-to-head test to see what unit will move forward: deffkoptas vs. warbuggies (scouting/outflanking vs. same firepower/much cheaper)

chaosgerbil said...

Some ideas:

I would love to encourage you to Change Your Ways and do your Thousand Sons. You can get rhinos for $21 including shipping from bitkingdom.com .

For daemons, you can leave them on circle bases and then make special movement trays. Cut up a sprue and plastic glue posts at the grid intersections and the circle bases should nest between the posts. To make it look nice you can add tentacles, skulls, spikes, sand, etc.

Big Whit said...

Simon has a good point about the chaplin. I just open the can of worms, but I'll let some one else eat them.

Brent said...

Chaosgerbil...

That is a fantastic idea.

I'm going to try it and show off the results.

Evil Homer said...

I have use a 1" spade bit to drill out holes for the bases, I also have a 1" forstner bit to try for the same purpose. The forstner should drill our a flush bottom hole in a 1" diameter.

Of course if I do the demons for fantasy I will rebase onto 1" Hirst Arts floor tiles and build movement trays to match. I put a batch together like that and they looked fantastic.

Green Blow Fly said...

Basically you are looking for a way to bring in the warboss on a bike behind the enemy lines and it's clearly for a gaming advantage. If we look at precedents from other codices (past & present) then the answer is clearly no. A lot of players won't like it even if the existing rules don't explicitly state that you can't so your likely to take some hits on your soft scores (oh noes, soft scores is a dirty word around here)... Heh.

Whenever I am presented with an ambigous rules scenario I opt for the more conservative interpretation, so if I were a TO and if someone asked me if they could infiltrate a warboss with Snikrot I'd say no.

G

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