Daemons 2012 Part II

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Know this, up front: I'm a long way from there with these ideas.  Consider this a work in progress at best.

But it's good.

* * *

So Goat called yesterday and we got in a conversation about Daemons.  He had some interesting ideas I hadn't thought of - and I'm not sure how!  How did I overlook it for so long?  It's so simple!

Why not drop the Herald of Khorne with a unit of Flesh Hounds?

Darn it all!

What, you aren't following?

Okay, a Herald of Khorne can be a monster close combat threshing machine.  The problem has always been the delivery system.

The first step is Chariot or Jugger... and there is only one good answer.  No, it's not 'chariot.'

A chariot sort of sounds good on the face of it, since the Herald is even more pimp when pulled by a pair of Juggers!  Except practically speaking its hard for him to get in the fight, and he's got too much heavy lifting to do.  A chariot means no IC status, so he's dropping alone.  No fleet means he's got to get within charge range, and a canny opponent will avoid this model like the plaugue.

No, a Jugger is the only real option.

Traditionally the Jugger drops in with the unit of Bloodcrushers... but can anyone say 'overkill?'  It's too many points in one unit, and again there are some downsides.  The mobility of this unit is problematic, and the footprint is enormous.  With so many points tied up in one unit, you're giving away a strategy to your opponent: ignore or destroy.

Ignore:  block or feed units to the 'Crusher mob, whilst picking off other elements of the army.

Destroy:  concentrate everything on the 'Crusher mob, then throw the kitchen sink to boot.

Regarding the latter, many armies will have a dedicated counter-attack unit to throw into the assault phase.  Look, the 'Crusher mob is no joke and is going to take some seeing-to, but it can be done.

Ah, I hear you out there!  You're saying, "Brent, what about multiple units of Juggernauts and Heralds of Khorne?  Sure, that's a way to go...

...but think of the design issues.

With three units of 'Crushers you might as well go whole-hog and bust out a Fate-Crusher build, otherwise you're hampering yourself with limited anti-tank firepower.

Bottom line, Bolt is a must-have.  As it is, including Heralds of Khorne at all mean you're not getting a Bolt in the form of a Herald of Tzeentch!  Thinking along that line, the only reasonable choice for Troops are Horrors with Bolt.  In the old days, I'd have included one of my favorite units from the book, the Daemon Prince...

...but the Daemon Prince is dead.  The Dark Eldar killed it dead.  And that, ladies and gentleman, is what's put the kibosh on the Daemons Codex; the one-two punch of Grey Knights and Dark Eldar.

And no, Soul Grinders don't work.  I've never been a fan, but I at least tried a trio in a recent tournament.  It's not that they were terrible... just underwhelming.

* * *


One of my favorite words, and meaningful.  Goat's suggestion of dropping a Herald of Khorne (with Juggernaut obviously) with a unit of Flesh Hounds shattered my Daemons Paradigm.


Because previously I thought the only solution to dropping a Herald with Crushers was dropping them with Bloodletters...

...and remember what I said about Bolt?  You won't have the extra Heralds of Tzeentch and now the Daemon Princes are an inferior choice - you simply can't waste points on Bloodletters!

Not to mention, we don't need more anti-infantry.  What role do the Bloodletters fill that Horrors or Bearers don't do better?

* * *

I had the blinders on - it's that simple.  Flesh Hounds are a great answer.

They're faster and they have a collar.  The Herald of Khorne on Jugger - traditionally slow anyway - at least won't be giving up his 3d6 move through cover.

Because of Karnak, of course!  The Khornedog of Vengence with extra onions.

Enough talkie-talk; here's a list... and not the list.  Not sure it's there just yet.

Herald of Tzeentch 85 (dropped We Are Legion, dropped Disk)
Herald of Tzeentch 85
Herald of Khorne 135
Herald of Khorne 135
Fiends 190
Fiends 190
Bloodcrushers x5, Full Command 240
Pink Horrors w Bolt 95
Pink Horrors w Bolt 95
Pink Horrors w Bolt 95
Pink Horrors w Bolt 95
Pink Horrors w Bolt 95
Plaguebearers x7 w Icon 130 (place in wave opposite of Crushers)
Fleshhounds x9 + Karnak 185




Hulksmash said...

Damn you Brent. I've been looking at Daemons again too and this isn't helping my ADD!

As for the article I think it's an interesting choice. You are giving up the beast movement with the hounds which hurts a bit but I think it could work out. I'm not a fan of Karnak personally but I see his use.

Lately though my thoughts have been going crazy on hit&run beast/cav units with the troop section full of horrors since the death of the DP (I agree with this...). I say give it a few tests and see if you like it.

Anonymous said...

Is the idea for the hounds to get the Heralds close enough, then break off with a beast assault, allowing the heralds to only have to withstand about 1 turn of shooting? (Obviously you keep them together when trying to take down dedicated CC monsters...) Or do you throw them all in as a mob? It's a situational question, obviously, but what's the *plan* that you're going for? I'm not super-familiar with daemons, so it's not immediately apparent, lol.

Thomas aka Goatboy said...

It is used to push the 2+ save on Grey Knights punch.

I still think a multiple wave beast army is the best. It hurts a lot of armies - and the weakness isn't nearly as bad.

You need bolt so bad - so creating 6 units of horror troops - with two attached simple Heralds will create a massed bolt death idea that is pretty insance. Mix that with a crap ton of fiends and paladins die like punks (skull taker doesn't lose his 4+ killing blow - great to get rid of dread knights which are becoming more popular).

Really it is all about staying on the edge of nonsense. Of course can we keep our ideas in check before Adepticon Brent? If your list can't be Grey Knights then you shouldn't bring it heh.

Brent said...

Hulk: Glad to help! Regarding the list, there are still a number of areas to tweak. The original had two units of Hounds, no Karnak, and no Crushers.

3x Fiends plus Hounds and/or Seekers to taste may be the best take.

And the more I look at it, the more unnecessary the Bearers seem. Another Horror unit looks better...

Anon: Yup! The idea is to protect the Heralds, whilst taking some shots on the Heralds to protect the Hounds, until the unit gets close enough to split off into a few different directions.

I'd probably drop both Heralds in the same Hounds unit, with the Crushers in the opposite wave, but that's just me.

Hulksmash said...

That's funny Brent since I went home yesterday and playing with army builder came up with this:

2xHeralds of Tzeentch on chariots w/bolt and the shoot two powers power

2xHeralds of Khorne on juggers w/+1st, collar of khorne, and icon

3x6 Fiends
6x5 Horrors w/Bolt
2x9 Khorne Hounds

So apparently we're both headed to the same spot with this idea :)

Brent said...

Yup,that's pretty much what I was thinking!

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