10.02.2009

Building a List Less Suck (and a Blowfly Interlude)

So, regarding my Hard Boyz List-o-Suck...

The King said:
"I'm afraid I disagree with Chosen + Las Sniping being good, I cringed when I saw those squads."

The Green Blowfly said:
"While mech is the bomb all those rhinos give up a lot of very easy kill points. I think that at 2500 points you really don't want more than 3 rhinos. Five man squads of Marines in power armor also give up easy kill points."

and Bruce said:
"I have to agree, I'm not a big fan of 5 man squads unless your using combat tactics for a secure the objective mission."

So is the very foundation of the army I was trying to build flawed? Probably. It's hard to argue with King, who has proven insight into list-building, or with GBF, who has a ton of tournament experience. I'm also not discounting Bruce; though relatively new to the hobby, he tends to see things pretty clearly since he's not filtering it through literally 20 years of editions.

(I picked up my first pack of GW miniatures in Wales in 1990, when I was 14. They were Rogue Trader Era Orks - I still have the models in my collection, though I've repainted them numerous times over the years.)

These comments highlight my biggest weakness as a serious tournament player: I like to fiddle. I'm prone to making changes in my lists, often unnecessary. I like to play around with new concepts and ideas, though all too often I'm trying to reinvent the wheel. The 5-man squads in this army are an example, since it was the way to play Space Marines through 3rd and 4th edition and I'm curious enough to want to see if I can make it work again.

I also think its a good way to find unexpected success. See, I could download a netlist - something proven over time or currently hot - and I know I'd have success, given that I can actually play the game as well as anybody out there. Hell, I still may do that in the future; there's nothing wrong with it, but I tend toward a different strategy.

I like to play the edges, find something that's generally been discounted or a build that's not quite optimal but still effective. After all, the unexpected unit or rarely seen character can throw someone off their game. Everybody and their brother is prepared for Salamanders on the tournament scene, right?

So all that's bullshit justification, and I fully admit I may still be pissing in the wind. But I do have results to build on, having won numerous local and regional tournaments over the years and having gone undefeated in two large RTT's. If you're curious, I've found the most success with the 13th Co. and Orcs in 3rd and 4th edition and Eldar in 5th.

A BLOWFLY INTERLUDE
Bruce Emailed me the other day and pointed out something I'd missed. On September 18th, I posted in a comment that Green Blow Fly would be in attendance at Hard Boyz (among others) and that I was curious about him, since I'd heard he had a reputation for nonsense.

In the comments, the man himself asked, "Just curious as to what the nonsense you heard said and who said that."

I thought I'd address that real quick. In Round Two of Hard Boyz I had a bad experience in Game 3 with a guy who, deliberately or not - I'm not sure - slow-played me, almost costing me the win and the opportunity to move on. This lead to a rant and a few posts about bad tournament behavior, including a thread on the Wrecking Crew and the actions of some of its members. One of these dudes was GBF. I later read an explanation by GBF about the game in question that made a lot of sense, so given that when there are two sides the truth is usually somewhere in between, I copied that explanation and posted it here.

That still left me curious about Green Blow Fly, largely because I think he has one of the best nicknames on the Blogosphere - hell, I just like saying it! But then, I have a strange sense of humor. So when my buddy Bruce played the man himself I couldn't resist taking pictures, especially since he has a shirt with his name on it.

Humor aside, I'd like to be very clear: I quizzed Bruce hard about the game, searching for anything remotely like the things I'd read about online, but it didn't pan out. Bruce enjoyed the game and said he thought GBF was very cool. He said he was no quirkier than any other player, since we're a funny bunch playing with our man-dolls and all, and had zero real issues with the game apart from some minor rules questions, easily sorted out.



END GREEN BLOW FLY INTERLUDE

All that said, let's look at the changes I made to the template and see if it's not an improvement. Given the comments above, I'm not prepared to say this is a great army, but I'm at least hoping it's an obvious improvement over what I took to Hard Boyz.

2500 Pts - Chaos Marines Roster - Hard Boyz: Beyond the Suck

1 Abaddon the Despoiler @ 275 Pts

1 Typhus @ 225 Pts

3 Terminators @ 365 Pts

Chain Fist (x1); Power Fist (x1); Power Weapon (x1); Combi-melta (x3); Land Raider

1 Land Raider @ [235] Pts

Twin Linked Heavy Bolter; Twin Linked Lascannon Sponson (x2); Extra Armor; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers

5 Chosen @ 165 Pts (2 UNITS)

Bolt Pistol (x5); Bolter (x1); Close Combat Weapon (x5); Meltagun; Meltagun (x3); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Infiltrate; Rhino

1 Rhino @ [35] Pts

Twin Linked Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers

6 Khorne Berzerkers @ 237 Pts

Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Fearless; Furious Charge; Mark of Khorne; Rhino

1 Skull Champion @ [61] Pts

Bolt Pistol; Power Fist; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Fearless; Furious Charge; Mark of Khorne

1 Rhino @ [50] Pts

Havoc Launcher; Twin Linked Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers

5 Noise Marines @ 190 Pts (3 UNITS)

Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Blastmaster; Bolter (x4); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Fearless; Mark of Slaanesh; Rhino

1 Rhino @ [50] Pts

Havoc Launcher; Twin Linked Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers

5 Havocs @ 165 Pts (3 UNITS)

Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Bolter; Autocannon (x2); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Rhino

1 Rhino @ [50] Pts

Havoc Launcher; Twin Linked Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers

Total Roster Cost: 2497


I tried to format it so it was easier to read. I also stuck with the themes I outlined for the army I took to Hard Boyz; that is, 2 tough close combat characters, Rhino spam, 5-man units, and popping shots from the hatch. Let's break it down.

  1. Mech: 1 Land Raider and 9 Rhinos
  2. Abaddon, Typhus, and the Berserkers hang out in the Land Raider.
  3. The Terminators drop and pop (hopefully).
  4. The Chosen prepare to stall Land Raiders as needed.
  5. The Noise Marines and the Havocs stay loaded in the Rhinos and use the 48-inch range to maintain maximum distance.
  6. The Rhinos, with the exception of the suicidal Chosen, have Havoc Launchers. Why not? We're hopefully standing still at the board edge to shoot from range.
  7. The Berserkers are given a Rhino as an extra option. Basically, if the Terminators don't need to Deep Strike they can join the characters in the Land Raider. Otherwise the Rhino is a spare.
  8. Weapons with 48 inches: Lascannons 2TL, Autocannons 6, Blastmasters 3, and Havoc Launchers 7.
So, I've tried to keep the units cheap and the options to a minimum. The very obvious downside is the huge number of possible Killpoints, but my feeling is, with this list, I'll let my opponent worry about how to collect it while I just concentrate on implementing my game. The units are designed to walk away from if they get caught out in close combat, with the exception of the Superfriends. Keep in mind, I'm also trying to make a strength of a weakness: yes, they're small units, easily killed by elite assault troops or massed fire, but they're still Space Marines. Against Guard, for example, I'd happily wade in to combat with a 10-strong unit.

Well, perhaps because that's a better place to live than in front of their guns. Maybe I should buy that army instead of fucking around with this one...

Take care - Brent



16 comments:

Jwolf said...

21 scoring bodies is bad.

Ignore Kill Points considerations, even if you know ahead of time that every mission is primary on kill points. Killing bad guys is easier with more targetable segments, and killing bad guys is where it's at.
Abby is not as good as the extra unit of Berserkers in Rhino you can replace him with.

I'd change one unit of Noise Marines to have a Champ with a Doom Siren and run those guys up. Doom Sirens out of Rhinos are loverly.

Not Melta-y enough, and sitting back is for suckers.

Landraider should be possessed, not extra armored.

MSU CSM are fun to play with, and since you play Eldar, you know how to handle fragile packages.

Adam Trike said...

Hi, just wanted to say that I like your blog, I recently discovered it, and sort of makes me want to start my own blog, heh.

I'm a little bit like you, in always wanting to try 'something new' though I usually do it on a smaller scale (i.e. I'll use my normal army plus a squad of possessed, or some other random seldom-used squad) to see how it affects competitive games.

I don't have a lot of advice for your list, personally, since there's a lot of things I would do very differently (especially for 'ard boyz) but I did notice that you wanted close combat characters.

Abbadon is clearly a beast and if you want to take a land raider, he's a pretty solid choice. Have you considered Kharn? I've had a LOT of success with him, and he's swung more games in my favor than I care to count, as well as giving me some good laughs at what he manages to kill of my own stuff. Lots of times I'll charge ONLY Kharn into the enemy, at S6 I6 w/ 7A hitting on 2+, he almost never fails to disappoint.

Anyways, thats what I noticed.

Sorry to make this a long post, but I also had a comment on GBF. I played him once at a tournament (a Wrecking Crew tournament, actually) playing my own Blood Angels. We had pretty similar lists, and I can't say I had a bad impression of him starting our game.

I won't spend a lot of words badmouthing him, I will just say that I had a pretty different experience playing him than your friend Bruce seems to have had. I posted a Battle Report on Dakka Dakka and Warseer about the game (my SN is Xaereth on both forums), if you want to see the details. I don't have problems with the rest of Wrecking Crew, actually pretty nice guys from the ones that I've met.

Perhaps Steve has changed, or our game was a fluke (he certainly talks about having worked on his 'nice' play a lot, and I hope he has).

Just wanted to let you in on my view of Steve (GBF). Like anyone cares, haha.

Bruce said...

Well like I told Brent it wasn't a bad game, and I don't mean to make this sound bad, but not to sugar coat what I've actually said I think that GBF is on some type of medication or drugs judging from his behavior. The reason I say this is because I work with a bunch of heavily medicated people, and former drug users. That being said the guy didn't really do anything that made me cry foul. We had rule questions that the judges solved, and I knew going into the game his reputation, so I watched him like a hawk. The truth is that I don't think it would have been worth it for him to pull any crazy shenanigans since it was round three and we were fighting for last place. I do wish that I didn't know his reputation before the game, so that I could have enjoyed it. I can't say how his past performances have been, but as far as I am concerned I really did not have a bad experience.

Bruce said...

I know that GBF will probably get mad at this last post, so I will apologize to you in advance. I only met you for one game, so it may not be fair to say that you are on meds, but that was just the feeling that I got. So, once again sorry, I just want to give an honest opinion to everyone.
I'm sure that everyone who has played this game has had an ass hat moment were they have done something stupid. The thing to do is to learn from your mistakes, and try to change it. I learned this myself when I invited a guy out to the parking lot because things didn't go my way in a tournament. I vowed that I would never be that guy again, and maybe GBF learned a similar lesson. This is a funny game we play, people put a lot of effort into there models, list, and travel all over the country to play. Emotions get high when people finally get to the table, which can make for some pretty crazy behavior. This doesn't excuse what people have done, but maybe it's easier to forgive them when you think about it from this point of view.

Darkwynn said...

GBF is a nice guy outside of the game and is really great to hang out with. AS for the game there are different things out there and take them with stride. I always tease him only because I have known Steve for a very long time.

Awesome I had to write the word Boobs to verify this post !

Brent said...

Man, this is an interesting selection of comments, not to mention the whole excercise has become that much more important. Last night at the FLGS we all randomly rolled an army to develop over the next tournament season.

I rolled Chaos, so I'm going to have to put my money where my mouth is. I've decided to go with the MSU/Rhino theme, but with some major changes. More on this in future posts, but JWolf, I'd appreciate any advice you might have for me, since Chaos isn't an army I have much experience with, despite owning it.

Adam: I read your posts about the game you played, WC v WC. What can I say? I thought you were clear and straightforward; I also thought it took courage, since you had to know the feedback you'd get. I don't know how it all ended, but I hope you stop by from time to time and offer your opinion. I know my style probably isn't for everyone, but I have a clear idea of what I hope visitors get from this site but I assure you it's given me far more.

Bruce: I'm going to have to turn your comments into a blog; there's just too much good stuff there to pass up.

Take care all - Brent

Green Blow Fly said...

Heavy medication.... Hurrrr! I had to laugh out loud when I read that. I have never heard that one before. I like to listen to heavy metal and that is about as close as I get to what you call heavy medication.

From what I have read on the Internet about myself playing in tournaments all the slams have come from young players that lost to me. I have been playing in tournaments for over 15 years now. I have both won and lost my share of big games. I rarely go onto the Internet to cry about losing a game. I think it's just in bad form. I would rather spend my time discussing tactics and how to build competitive armies that are very unique. For the past few years I have heavily concentrated on Blood Angels following the new PDF codex along for 4th edition well into 5th edition. Blood Angels are by far one of my favorite armies.

Some people like to pick on me when they lose. It's not a problem and you can bet I will tell my side of the story. The Wrecking Crew is well known and has had it's ups and downs. I think it is easy to pick on people that play outside of their local area and are easily recognized by being affliated with clubs that have had some success through the years. I don't think Nick can say anything bad about me based on the very few games we've played in the past. I have won my fair share of best sportsmanship awards including the Dallas 2001 GT. Sure I have had some games that I should have been a better sport but anyone that has played a lot of games in national tournaments are in the same boat.

Adam you should be honest with yourself about our game. You are extremely competitive and it shows when you play. Don't expect your opponents to roll over for you mate. I played Tulio right after my game with you in Colorado Springs... He has won a GT with Necrons and I didn't see him trashing me on the Internet after we played to a draw. This game of ours is a small world and word gets around. I'm not knocking you, just saying look at it from the other side of the table. Sure I am also very competitive but I think generally speaking I know when to draw the line. It's just that simple too. As Bruce mentioned our game was pretty much meaningless when we played in the third round. I was more concerned at that point he had a fun game, which I believe he did.

Peace out for now.
G

Adam Trike said...

Eh, I'm not trying to start a flame war with you Steve. I've for the most part made my peace with that game, and though I have a good memory (for good or bad, who's to say?) I don't wish you ill will. I think we can coexist in peace. I was even considering going to the WC tournament this month, but there's a local one in town, and funds are running somewhat low these days :-P

I do want to say that I didn't ONLY write that batrep to slam you- if you look at my account on Warseer, you'll see that I have a list of batreps that I've written for various tournaments that I've attended. It wasn't an attempt to only slam Steve, though I'll admit that at the time it felt somewhat good to write what I did, given my feelings on the matter.

Brent- thanks for the invite, I'll for sure pop in every once in a while, I usually enjoy keeping up with active blogs, especially warhammer ones! Keep it up :)

Darkwynn said...

GBF we never went to go drink in Chicago :(

What happened to that !

Green Blow Fly said...

That's too bad. I spent that Saturday evening eating steak, drinkning beer and watching the White Sox on a big screen TV at Harry Carry's over at the Westin with Dakka mates - Bill Kim (Centurian99), Mannamhim (Ragnar), Redbeard, Greg Sparks, Augustus, muhwe and others. I wish you could have joined us. It was a great time and a fitting end to Ard Boyz.

Adam I'm not mad at you anymore and I am very happy to see you feel the same. That's a great thing for sure. Hopefully everyone reading this will in the future think first before they post vitrol on the Internet.

That's all for now.

G

Bruce said...

Like I said it would have been a real fun game for me if I wasn't on a witch hunt. Also I'm glad you got a good laugh about the medication thing, I really didn't know. Maybe I'll see you in the future events, and we can take Brent's meds and throw everyone off.

Green Blow Fly said...

When I encounter people like you I just say WTF to myself and just get on with it. I hope that doesn't offend you. I don't mean to come off as rude.

G

Bruce said...

That was meant as a joke.

Bruce said...

Bad comedic timing, to soon.

Bruce said...

Can anyone tell me why the hell they put stats for chosen bikers, but don't show how to purchase them. Infiltrating bikers sounded so cool to me until I figured out that they forgot to put the cost of a bike for the chosen. Damn you GW.

Green Blow Fly said...

If you go to my blog entitled greenblowfly.blogspot.com I address my game with Adam Trike and present my view.

(A new favorite!) Anon: I haven’t even bothered playing a game of 6th yet, cause I have read the rules, and actually understand how they interact with units. I know my armies no longer function how they should, and so I need to change them.

Strictly Average: 'cause 6-inches is all you get.

Stalking Jawaballs since 2009.

Jawaballs: "My butt just tightened up."

Brent, preferred 2-to-1 over Not Brent in a recent, scientific poll.

Brent: emptied the Kool Aid and DRINKING YOUR MILKSHAKE with an extra-long straw.

Unicorns don't exist.

Home of the Stormbuster, the Dyson Pattern Storm Raven.

I'm a comment whore and this whore is getting no play.

Not Brent hurts Brent's feelings.

I think, therefore I blog.

"You should stop writing for everyone else and worry about your crappy blog." - Anon.

Not Brent has been spotted lurking around with a green marker.

He's not like a bad guy from a cartoon, all devious but never quite evil, Not Brent is bad beans, man, bad beans.

Dethtron: "Again I feel obliged to remind you that trying to sound smart only works if you are."

MVB: "I am not one to join the unwashed masses of self-titled 40k experts out there distributing advice from their blogs about exactly how your list should be built..."

Shiner Bock on tap: that's how I choose hotels.

Strictly Average: The Home of Hugs and Gropings.

Don't feed the trolls!

MoD: "Welcome to Brent's head."

Competitive is Consistent.

Dethtron: "...you could use that extra time to figure out a way to get your panties unbunched and perform a sandectomy on your vagina."

Dethtron: “When calling someone an idiot, it's generally best to avoid making grammatical mistakes.”

Warboss Stalin: "You know, if it actually WAS funny, maybe I wouldn't mind."

Mike Brandt: "It's not a successful bachelor party if you don't misplace someone".

"The Master Manipulator (every store needs one): "...now, enough stroking."

Kirby: "I don't know about gropings. Seriously, Brent, keep it in the pants, please."

Loquacious: "No matter how hard I tried, I couldn't get Hugs & Gropings or Stalks Jawaballs into Brent's little tribute."

Captain Kellen: "I rate this article a Brent on the Faith Hill to Nancy Pelosi scale!"

Drathmere: "Come for the balls, stay for the Brent? Kind of disturbing, man."

Go no further, lest thee see something thine eyes would fain look past!

Isabelle: "So, thank you for supporting your local and not so local unicorns. A noble gesture like that can show some scared kids out there that they don't have to hide from everyone and it's ok to be who they really are."

There is nothing more interesting than We The People... in all our beautiful, ugly glory!

On Internet Advice: You see, I have an almost religious belief that's it's a huge, colossal waste of time.

...I think I'll call it the Gun Shy Pattern Stormbuster, because after the Internet destroyed my first humble effort, I find I'm a bit worried about the reaction to this one.

Lauby: "Is it left over from that time you thought that you could just complete step one 12 times to meet the mandates of that court order?"

Not Brent: "I guess we'll have to read on and find out. Signed, Not Brent. Especially today."

Cynthia Davis: "I think the scrolling text is from Glen Beck's new book."

Grimaldi: "Spamming certain units creates interesting possibilities but also fatal weaknesses."

Purgatus: "Math can inform decisions. It cannot make decisions."

Thoughts? Comments? Hugs and gropings?

You'd be that much quicker to figure out what I mean when I refer to a Unicorn if I covered it in a rainbow flag.

SinSynn: (To Brent) "Curse you and your insidious influence on the internets..."

Dave G (N++): "You know you're an internet celebrity when your following is more akin to tabloids."

I prefer the term Internet Personality (or IP) myself, seeing as how I coined it.

Lauby: "Your attempt to humanize him as failed. I feel nothing but scorn for his beard - it's like a warcrime or something."

BBF: "I've always thought you are a good player but I finally figured out that you are a great player. It's hard to see sometimes because your personality is engaging, sincere and quite charming - to me that is kind of a rare combination."

'Clearly cheating?' I didn't misspeak: you jumped to conclusions. If you'd like to apologize I'll be happy to send you an autographed picture of my ass.

Ass.

I thought I was doing alright before I realized I was losing.

Age and treachery beats youth and vigor every time.

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