9.30.2009

Why My Hard Boyz List Sucked...

(Send it to the Chop Shop!)

Okay, so the army I took to Hard Boyz sucked pretty hard.

I could probably end the post here and everyone would understand, but let's take a look at it and try to understand what went wrong. Other than the obvious that is: I shouldn't have changed my list the day before, regardless of the good reasons I had. Anyway, here's the list...


2500 Pts - Chaos Marines Roster - Hard Boyz List 2009

1 Abaddon the Despoiler @ 275 Pts
Drach'nyen; Talon of Horus; Twin Linked Bolter; Fearless; Personal Icon; Mark of Chaos Ascendant

1 Chaos Lord @ 170 Pts
Blood Feeder; Bolt Pistol (x1); Fearless; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bike; Mark of Khorne

5 Chosen @ 160 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x5); Bolter (x4); Close Combat Weapon (x5); Lascannon; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Infiltrate; Rhino
1 Rhino @ [35] Pts
Twin Linked Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers

5 Chosen @ 160 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x5); Bolter (x4); Close Combat Weapon (x5); Lascannon; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Infiltrate; Rhino
1 Rhino @ [35] Pts
Twin Linked Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers

5 Chosen @ 160 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x5); Bolter (x4); Close Combat Weapon (x5); Lascannon; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Infiltrate; Rhino
1 Rhino @ [35] Pts
Twin Linked Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers

5 Khorne Berzerkers @ 171 Pts
Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Fearless; Furious Charge; Personal Icon; Mark of Khorne
1 Skull Champion @ [61] Pts
Bolt Pistol; Power Fist; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Fearless; Furious Charge; Mark of Khorne

4 Chaos Space Marines @ 170 Pts
Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Bolter; Meltagun (x1); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Chaos Glory; Rhino
1 Aspiring Champion @ [55] Pts
Bolt Pistol; Power Fist; Bolter; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades
1 Rhino @ [35] Pts
Twin Linked Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers

4 Chaos Space Marines @ 170 Pts
Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Bolter; Meltagun (x1); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Chaos Glory; Rhino
1 Aspiring Champion @ [55] Pts
Bolt Pistol; Power Fist; Bolter; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades
1 Rhino @ [35] Pts
Twin Linked Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers

4 Chaos Space Marines @ 170 Pts
Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Bolter; Meltagun (x1); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Chaos Glory; Rhino
1 Aspiring Champion @ [55] Pts
Bolt Pistol; Power Fist; Bolter; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades
1 Rhino @ [35] Pts
Twin Linked Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers

5 Bikers @ 248 Pts
Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Twin Linked Bolter; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bike; Chaos Glory
1 Biker Champion @ [73] Pts
Bolt Pistol; Power Fist; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bike

1 Land Raider @ 245 Pts
Twin Linked Heavy Bolter; Twin Linked Lascannon Sponson (x2); Dirge Caster; Dozer Blade; Extra Armor; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers

5 Havocs @ 185 Pts
Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Bolter; Lascannon (x1); Missile Launcher (x2); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Rhino
1 Rhino @ [35] Pts
Twin Linked Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers

5 Havocs @ 150 Pts
Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Bolter; Meltagun (x4); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Rhino
1 Rhino @ [35] Pts
Twin Linked Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers

5 Summoned Lesser Daemon @ 65 Pts
Close Combat Weapon; Fearless

Total Roster Cost: 2499

Let's break it down.

Abaddon and the Berserkers in the Land Raider = Good
Khorne Lord w Bloodfeeder on Bike with supporting Bike Squad = God Awful
Chosen w Lascannon popping out of a Rhino x3 = Good
5-man core units w PF and melta gun popping out of a Rhino x3 = Average
5 Daemons = Poor
Havoc squad with melta guns popping out of a Rhino = Good
Havoc squad w Lascannon and Missle Launchers popping out of a Rhino = Poor
The Rhino Spam theme = Good
Screwing up the Rhino Spam theme with some poor choices = Priceless

So, I had 8 Rhinos and a Land Raider, which in all 3 games were great. I wasn't sold on the idea of bare-bones tanks until I tried it, now I'm a convert. 35pts works if you use a lot of 'em. That part of the army worked, but there was a supplemental.

That is, the idea of KEEPING THE SQUAD IN THE RHINO and secondarily using the hatch to turn the Rhinos into pillboxes. All this was to the good, but you have to do it right.

So let's take a look at one example of poor execution, the Havoc squad with 3 heavy weapons. Two points here: 1) having 3 weapons encouraged me to disembark the squad, which is counter to the strategy, and 2) I didn't realize more than 1 weapon could fire from the top hatch.

How's that for stupid? I change my army and didn't actually know the rules that applied to the new force I was playing. You can see this mistake in the choices I made. Since I can have two weapons shoot from my cheapo pillboxes, why not give the Havocs two lascannons and stick them in a Rhino? This is better than having the Chosen in the same role with only one.

I could go on, but let's look at the true elephant in the room, the Khorne Lord with the Bloodfeeder and the Bike Squad he accompanies. This, my friends, is over 400 points of stupid. On paper... it's still stupid... but let's look at it the way I did. I have the models, but more importantly the Bloodfeeder can add 2d6 extra attacks! That gives me a close combat character to match Abaddon. Well, it doesn't, but that's actually what I was looking for, a close assault or counterattack option to balance Abaddon. Notice these two units are the only CC element in an army primarily designed to be a gunline, so I figure they have to be good. Truth be told, even discounting how the Lord won't fight if he rolls a 1 on either dice, the option just doesn't work. It's a power weapon, true, but it simply won't hit or wound enough for me to build a significant portion of my army around. He doesn't come close to being an Abbaddon.

Okay, those are the primary problems with the list. Even then, it did pretty well, with 1 win and 2 good losses; nobody rolled over me. How much better, then, would my performance be had I practice enough with the concept to tighten it up some, or (even better) played the army I was familiar with, the Eldar?

I think that's pretty obvious.

So my goal now, for the coming year of tournaments, is to apply a critical mind to what I'm doing, be it lists, changes, strategy, tactics... any and all aspects of what I'm doing.

Next post, I'm going to change up the list, see if I can make one along the same principles that's obviously better.

Take care - Brent

8 comments:

Big Jim said...

Wow, your list really suffers from too many small units.

I've been pretty successful running an undivided Lord on a bike with a Daemon weapon and combi-melta, supported by 5 bikers, 2 meltas and a Champ with a P. weapon.

I usually keep them behind a Rhino wall early in the game. Then I blow them past to reek havoc in my opponents backfield. I also take two units of Lesser Daemons as support for them; if my reserves rolls are favorable.

Cheers,
Jim

Bruce said...

I have to agree, I'm not a big fan of 5 man squads unless your using combat tactics for a secure the objective mission. I do like the idea of chaos bikers, especially w/ the mark of nurgle. I think that you should have had a melta gun in the bike squad also. I don't know like I said before we were thinking objectives, and got annihilation missions.

The_King_Elessar said...

I'm afraid I disagree with Chosen + Las Sniping being good, I cringed when I saw those squads.

The best way to illustrate why, IMO, is for you to try and get in proxy games using Stelek's favoured Tactical Squad layout. That Lascannon will just never feel adequate again by comparison. lol

Multi-Meltas are too good - and you can't have them... :(

Green Blow Fly said...

While mech is the bomb all those rhinos give up a lot of very easy kill points. I think that at 2500 points you really don't want more than 3 rhinos. Five man squads of Marines in power armor also give up easy kill points. I think a great analogy is the new movie Jennifer's Body. The cheerleader gets the power of a daemon but it takes her nerd best friend to properly utilize those evil powers. The nerd girlfriend sees things as they really are and straightens out all the problems by the end of the movie. Megan Fox ad the cheerleader turned daemon is the hot snizzle but she just can't put together a good plan to save her sweet cheeks literally. I think that says something for hte nerds.

G

Brent said...

GBF, that is the best analogy I've seen in dog's age; the wife happened by as I was laughing and understood the reference even though she doesn't understand the game. Good stuff!

King, I don't disagree with you, but I'm stubborn. Part of the reason I'm posting these lists and my thoughts is to learn to apply critical thinking so I can reign myself in.

My goal is to learn to build better lists, so feel free to tear apart anything I write.

Brent

Bruce said...

Hey Meagan, ops I mean Brent one more thing that you should look at is a demon prince. You know I'm a fan of multi wound hard to kill creatures. I plan on running mine w/ a squad of nurgle bikers. You could also use raptors if you wanted to not restrict flying over terrain.

Albertsen said...

Nice article here. It is such kind of unique article. It is interesting to read. Thanks for sharing it here. It is nice to post here. I like this site and will visit this site in future too.

encre

Kirby said...

Well Brent *shuffles pages.* I think what you've tried to go for is a Rhino spam army (particularly by your notes at the end) but it seriously lacks in AT and AI. Whilst you have two scary CC monsters in Bike Lord & Abaddon, most armies are happy to sit at range, block midfield and eat your several lascannons. If you want to do something like that go for 12x Rhinos w/meltaguns & flamers & havoc launchers galore though it wouldn't scale well I think (you could add bikes or raptors? Maybe drop 2 Havocs/Choosen for some Termies in LRs, whilst not great at least chews up some poitns and can be scary in cc).

I'd also be wary of the combat weapons. Whilst CSM aren't crappy SM in combat, as you pointed out keeping them in their Rhinos is a better plan. That saves you a lot of points there. In fact, at 2.5k you could prob fit in Plague Marines instead of CSM which would give you a tougher core. I could write a list if you'd like? but think Stelek wrote one a long time back.

Sorry to hear 'ard Boyz didn't go well. Come to Australi! lol

(A new favorite!) Anon: I haven’t even bothered playing a game of 6th yet, cause I have read the rules, and actually understand how they interact with units. I know my armies no longer function how they should, and so I need to change them.

Strictly Average: 'cause 6-inches is all you get.

Stalking Jawaballs since 2009.

Jawaballs: "My butt just tightened up."

Brent, preferred 2-to-1 over Not Brent in a recent, scientific poll.

Brent: emptied the Kool Aid and DRINKING YOUR MILKSHAKE with an extra-long straw.

Unicorns don't exist.

Home of the Stormbuster, the Dyson Pattern Storm Raven.

I'm a comment whore and this whore is getting no play.

Not Brent hurts Brent's feelings.

I think, therefore I blog.

"You should stop writing for everyone else and worry about your crappy blog." - Anon.

Not Brent has been spotted lurking around with a green marker.

He's not like a bad guy from a cartoon, all devious but never quite evil, Not Brent is bad beans, man, bad beans.

Dethtron: "Again I feel obliged to remind you that trying to sound smart only works if you are."

MVB: "I am not one to join the unwashed masses of self-titled 40k experts out there distributing advice from their blogs about exactly how your list should be built..."

Shiner Bock on tap: that's how I choose hotels.

Strictly Average: The Home of Hugs and Gropings.

Don't feed the trolls!

MoD: "Welcome to Brent's head."

Competitive is Consistent.

Dethtron: "...you could use that extra time to figure out a way to get your panties unbunched and perform a sandectomy on your vagina."

Dethtron: “When calling someone an idiot, it's generally best to avoid making grammatical mistakes.”

Warboss Stalin: "You know, if it actually WAS funny, maybe I wouldn't mind."

Mike Brandt: "It's not a successful bachelor party if you don't misplace someone".

"The Master Manipulator (every store needs one): "...now, enough stroking."

Kirby: "I don't know about gropings. Seriously, Brent, keep it in the pants, please."

Loquacious: "No matter how hard I tried, I couldn't get Hugs & Gropings or Stalks Jawaballs into Brent's little tribute."

Captain Kellen: "I rate this article a Brent on the Faith Hill to Nancy Pelosi scale!"

Drathmere: "Come for the balls, stay for the Brent? Kind of disturbing, man."

Go no further, lest thee see something thine eyes would fain look past!

Isabelle: "So, thank you for supporting your local and not so local unicorns. A noble gesture like that can show some scared kids out there that they don't have to hide from everyone and it's ok to be who they really are."

There is nothing more interesting than We The People... in all our beautiful, ugly glory!

On Internet Advice: You see, I have an almost religious belief that's it's a huge, colossal waste of time.

...I think I'll call it the Gun Shy Pattern Stormbuster, because after the Internet destroyed my first humble effort, I find I'm a bit worried about the reaction to this one.

Lauby: "Is it left over from that time you thought that you could just complete step one 12 times to meet the mandates of that court order?"

Not Brent: "I guess we'll have to read on and find out. Signed, Not Brent. Especially today."

Cynthia Davis: "I think the scrolling text is from Glen Beck's new book."

Grimaldi: "Spamming certain units creates interesting possibilities but also fatal weaknesses."

Purgatus: "Math can inform decisions. It cannot make decisions."

Thoughts? Comments? Hugs and gropings?

You'd be that much quicker to figure out what I mean when I refer to a Unicorn if I covered it in a rainbow flag.

SinSynn: (To Brent) "Curse you and your insidious influence on the internets..."

Dave G (N++): "You know you're an internet celebrity when your following is more akin to tabloids."

I prefer the term Internet Personality (or IP) myself, seeing as how I coined it.

Lauby: "Your attempt to humanize him as failed. I feel nothing but scorn for his beard - it's like a warcrime or something."

BBF: "I've always thought you are a good player but I finally figured out that you are a great player. It's hard to see sometimes because your personality is engaging, sincere and quite charming - to me that is kind of a rare combination."

'Clearly cheating?' I didn't misspeak: you jumped to conclusions. If you'd like to apologize I'll be happy to send you an autographed picture of my ass.

Ass.

I thought I was doing alright before I realized I was losing.

Age and treachery beats youth and vigor every time.

Popular Posts