Trolling Between Stalking...

Since I hate to waste the effort, here's a comment I made HERE.  You don't have to troll that thread to understand the points I (attempting) to make though.

This has been an interesting thread, so I decided to throw my 2 cents in on a few points, specifically Blackmoor's list and Nick's comment about tournaments.  Let's do the latter first.  Nick said:
I've lost games in local tourneys due to improbable events(say, having vulkan and a 5-man bonk squad assault a vanilla cpt. with 5 normal termies, lose combat, fail morale, and get run off the board.), only to watch a drastically inferior player(and army) win the top spot, because his road to victory was paved in kids and cupcakes. Does this prove that said player is good? FUCK NO it doesn't. I routinely destroy him head to head with whatever army I put on the table. Again, that doesn't prove I'm good...just that he's bad.  

I get how this can happen in a tournament: I don't get how it can happen in many tournaments.  The standard format is the Swiss - basically, top player plays top player, and so on.  So after Turn 1, you have 1vs2, 3vs4, 5vs6 and so on.  The games get harder.  To really break out and secure the money at the end of the day, you have to beat the tougher competition.  The only way I see Nick's example playing out is if each round the opponents were determined randomly.  Even then, I'd expect the better players to use that to their advantage and maximize their Battle Points.

I play in small, medium, and large size tournaments, much like I'm sure many people here do... I've only ever seen the Swiss system.  In our local tournaments, which we have monthly, the same people are constantly in the top quarter (it's why I'm always playing Evil Homer - we're always fighting for the win).  That's not chance, that's skill.  I'm sure you could say the competition in my area sucks; while I assure you it doesn't I have no way to prove it to you, except to say when the same players go out of town to Dallas or Oklahoma City, they end up in the top quarter and top tables their as well... point is, I think tournaments do prove something...

Even if that's only, "I play in tournaments."  Smile

Regarding Blackmoor's list, I'm sorry to tell you folks I can absolutely see how it could win.  Mech has never been a formula for an auto-win.  If one's opponents don't know how to capitalize on a weakness, it's not a weakness.  Some points:

Eldrad and the Avatar are an extremely potent combo - they are both force multipliers, making each other and the army much harder.  I used them in my Hybrid Eldar and it got me to Chicago for last year's Hard Boyz.  Then I didn't 'dance with the list what brought me': like an idiot, I changed armies and went 50/50 on the day with a poor Chaos list, but I digress.  The Avatar with Fortune against a Doomed opponent will beat face.  The reason I stopped using it, besides retiring that force, is the new availability of psychic defense.  Shut down Fortune, bye-bye Avatar.

Regarding the rest, if Blackmoor's opponents allow the game to be turned into a shooting match, well - count the shots.  Obviously Blackmoor's job is to try and mold the game to his strength.  Give him a turn of shooting and your transports are going poof.

I don't know Blackmoor, so this isn't me sticking up for a friend.  I just like the application of critical thinking over blanket statements.

Part of what Stelek says he's trying to do is increase the percentage of decent lists on the circuit.  For all that people here think it's obvious, the tournament circuit is slow to change.  Blackmoor's list is viable until it does. 

*shrugs*  That's just my opinion; given that I'm lines on your computer screen, how much is it worth? 


Jwolf said...

Nonwinners often have great insight into how the winner won via some sort of voodoo (which is true in my case), or just got lucky not to face them, or won because of soft scores (I have seen this pointed at several recent GT winners, even though they also had the most pure battle points).

The opinions of nonwinners on winners very rarely include comments like "that guy knew his list and beat me like I didn't even know the game system."

Basically, many nonwinners act like losers instead of competitors that did not win. Perhaps that is because a huge percentage of the nonwinners are also nonparticipants. The great thing is you don't have to participate in a tournament to be a loser, as is demonstrated repeatedly in your link. I have no idea how to win with the list given, but I respect the guy for winning, and I've already scheduled a game with him - maybe I'll learn something, or maybe not, but just because I don't see how his list can be used well doesn't make it useless.

Big Whit said...

Brent microwaves his dice, and that's the only reason he wins!

Brent: I can't believe that you killed Billy Mays for this. You sir are a disgrace to oxi clean users. :)

Brent said...

Whit: you can whore your dice cups at any point! At any point you get mine done that is...

I want the new digital head, the one right about Evil Homer's evil-homer-head... on the back I want the tagline:

"Stalking Jawaballs Since 2009"

JWolf: What's there to say? I couldn't agree more.

Grimnar Angband said...

This is an interesting topic to me simply because I used to really mess with people using footdar in 4th edition. I firmly state that anyone who knows what he's doing can beat the tar out of some one who has a nice list, but has no clue. This was why I was so successful people were always ready for the flying circuses of death when I would tell them I played eldar, then be confused when they see me running dire avengers and a few Wraithlords at them with Dark reaper support and Eldrad, I loves him ^_^.

Then of course 5th came around and vehicles began to pop up every where and I let my eldar die, it was a good run.

The strength wasn't in my list, my list was complete garbage, the power came from the surprise of facing something my opponent wasn't ready for.

When you fight a list style you've never seen before it takes time to adapt, time I wouldn't give them. I knew what I was doing and immediately acted upon it while my opponents were still try to come up with a coherent plan.

It was very successful, not because of the list, but because of what the list allowed me to exploit.

Just my own wisdom on the subject.

Ps. I've watched your blog since it's first post and I really like what your doing here, keep up the good work.

Brent said...

Grimnar - I really appreciate that. I know that people read the blog, because I can see the stats, but sometimes you wonder if anyone thinks it's worthwhile. Encouragement is much appreciated.

I didn't even mention Dark Reapers, because the scorn they have heaped on them over at YTTH, but I simply love them. While I agree with the Master Manipulator (every store needs one) and Evil Homer that they are probably an inferior choice compared to the Fire Prism, I've used them to great effect any number of occasions. Once Marines are out of their transport, I don't think there is anything better for killing them.

The major failure I had with them (and Pathfinders) was against Adam in the Semis of Hard Boyz 2009. He had a nice Mechdar list, but those units are useless for knocking them out of the air.

Thanks again - Brent

Gauthic said...

Fire Prisms are da shiznit!

Although in 3rd, I sure did give hell with 2 full squads of Reapers (screened by concealed guardians) and Two full banshee squads in Wave Serpents.

The_King_Elessar said...

I'd dearly love to use Dark Reapers, I just can't bring myself to do it.

I think it's worth pointing out that the article itself wasn't exactly top notch. IMO, if you're saying something contrary to overwhelming popular opinion (ie, Foot can hold it's own) you don't start by saying you're undefeated. It's arrogant and meaningless. It's impossible to take someone seriously in that circumstance, and it makes their army seem much worse than it really is. I hold to the opinion, ofc, that that isn't even the strongest possible FootDar list, nvm the strongest possible Foot list.

Atrocity said...

I haven't been reading the blog for long, but I admit one (offtrack) thing caught my eye in particular. I live in Norman and have to wonder where it is you guys play?

Master Manipulator (every store needs one) said...

Brent, myself, Gauthic, BigWhit, and a few others play at Galaxy Comics in Wichita Falls,Tx.

Feel free to take a look at www.galaxycomics.net

Green Blow Fly said...

You can't knock Blackmoor. I have played him once and he is a very good player that knows what he is doing. I always pay attention to what he has to say. Sure we are full of crap at times but don't let that take away from what a knowledgable person has to say. Often the best lists are deceptive. Just because it's not Fateweaver/Crusher spam, lash spam, mech vets spam, etc. doesn't mean it's not viable. Spam is the last refuge for the dummies. Blackmoor knows what he is taking about. The people that railed against his infantry eldar win at the Wild West are the same people that let others tell them how they should play the game. Personally I abhor meta net lists and to me nothing could be more boring. If you ever happen to make it to one of the top tables I doubt you will see any meta net lists. That's just the way it is.


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